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Old 02-21-2021, 05:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default ML Primers

The run on reloading components has spread to the ML audience as far as finding primers, caps, powder, etc. I have always used a shot shell 209 primer in my inline loaders. Preference has been the CCI Mag 209.


Remington came out with the "Kleanbore" primer developed for the ML industry. I have never used these. The cost of $7 compared to $3 I just couldn't see the benefit of the Kleanbore brand. So please, can someone explain the difference between the two and why a $7 primer is or isn't better than a regular 209 shot shell primer? I also use loose powder (777FG) not the pellets.
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Old 02-21-2021, 06:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It comes down to the powder you shoot. BH209 for example takes a hot primer to ignite. Pyrodex however is slower to ignite the entire charge even with a hot primer.

The main problem is a regular 209 itself has enough pressure to push the ball/sabot/conical forward slightly (depending on your barrel diameter, load fitment, friction etc) microseconds before the powder charge ignites. This caused poor accuracy (acting kindof like a bore obstruction), possible ripped or "blown" sabots but most famously, the infamous "Crud ring" that would build up in the area the sabot is pushed forward from, from where it is seated.

Remington solved this by making a "weaker" 209 primer just for muzzleloaders running pyrodex and similar powders... and frankly they work fantastic with pyrodex.

So if you run pyrodex or even black powder with a 209 ignition you will probably see a benefit to the Remington Kleanbore 209s. If you run BH209 or some of these other powder types you HAVE to use a regular or mag 209 primer.

IDK about other powder types... 777 probably falls into the Remington 209 category. Best consult the powder mfg to see what they recommend.

Wow... what an "old school" question, fun times. These issues all cropped up when muzzleloader barrel tolerances were all over the map. People measuring bores and mixing and matching sabots to different bullet diameters to alter how tight they fit. Then it all went sideways when people started using 209s and those causes issues in and of themselves.

Young whippersnappers have no idea the headaches we went through with these things in the "good ole days". Maybe I'll go dig out out my "calfs knee" just for nostalgia purposes.


-DallanC
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Last edited by DallanC; 02-21-2021 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 02-21-2021, 06:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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ML bores are still all over the place.

I have three .50 caliber muzzle loaders. A Thompson Center Triumph, a Thompson Center Renegade, and a CVA Accura.

When I started to shoot Thor bullets I got a sizing pack that had 4 different diameter bullets in it. A.501, .502, .503, and a .504 bullet to try in the barrel to find the best fit.

The Thompson Center Triumph takes a .501, the TC Renagade will take a .502, and I can't even get a .501 to even think of starting in the CVA Accura.

That's alright since the Accura has a scope with no iron sights and Thompson Center EZ sabots and .44 250 grain bullets shoot fantastic out of it. The Triumph shoots the Thor .501 300 grain conical great also, and I'm putting the .54 caliber barrel back onto the Renegade so that I can shoot my 430 grain maxi balls that I hand cast for it.

On the 209 primers, all that I have shot in the Triumph has been Winchester 209's since a friend gave me a few thousand of them and I have had no problem with them shooting Pyrodex. In the Accura I found BH 209 to be the most accurate powder and likewise I start them off with the Winchester 209's.
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Old 02-21-2021, 06:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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To further confuse the heck out of this, Remington's packaging states:

Quote:
It's the cleanest-burning muzzleloader primer ever produced. Designed to burn extra-hot, they help keep the flash-hole clear for extended shooting between cleanings.
Maybe thats true, hotter yet not as powerful? IDK if they are any cleaner IMO than shotshell 209s... I do shoot 30-40 straight without cleaning the nipple when target shooting (always swab the barrel between shots though).

Anyway from Blackhorns page:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhorn
Blackhorn 209 is designed to work with standard 209 shotshell primers. For the best results, we recommend the following brands:
  • CCI 209M
  • Federal 209A
We DO NOT recommend any of the 209 primers designated for muzzleloaders (Winchester Triple 7, CCI MZL, Federal Fusion, or Remington Kleanbore). These primers are all weaker than standard shotshell 209 primers and do not provide adequate ignition for Blackhorn 209 – especially when used in a poorly designed breech plug system. We also DO NOT recommend #11 percussion caps or musket caps.
So they clearly state Kleanbore primers arent as powerful as regular 209s.


-DallanC
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks Dallan and Critter!


Dallan, I know we both shoot dang near the same set up as far as powder charge and bullet. I've read your posts of past ML issues/questions. The load I've worked up to shoot out of my T/C pro hunter .50 is, 110gr. loose FFF behind a .44 cal. 300gr. XTP using the CCI MAG 209.


My CVA pro is a .45 cal. and I drop 100 gr. 777 FFF pushing a SST .40 cal. 200gr. sabot. using the CCI primers. I love this rifle for deer and many have fallen to it. I did have an issue with grouping at first, but changed the sabots the bullet pack comes with, to the blue sabots. This made all the difference.


While stocking up on reloading components, like many others have been doing/done before the "panic" struck. I didn't even think to look over my ML stuff. After doing so, I have plenty of powder, bullets, sabots, conical, buffalo bullets for the .54 cal. sidelock, etc. What I don't have is primers. Maybe half a tray left. So if your able to do some swapping/trade I'm in. I don't want to leave you short on anything, who knows when this crap will slow down? Not in a hurry at all, have to draw the tag first.

Thanks again for clearing up my question on the differences between the two primers! Oh ya, I tried the BH 209 and wound up giving it away to another shooter that loves it. I didn't see any difference in a cleaner barrel, velocity, or accuracy when I "tested" it.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Interesting...

I am new to muzzleloaders but have been using BH209 and Winchester 777 primers without any issues. This is in an Accura V2.

I'll have to keep using these since primers have gone the way of the dinosaurs and I cannot try anything different.

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Old 02-22-2021, 09:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Lemme blow your minds further with something VERY FEW people realize and understand as well.

With these hotter primers, it "etches" out the inside of your flame channel. Get much above .035" and accuracy goes to hell. How many people know this? How many people even know to check this? Its one reason that great shooting muzzleloader goes to crap after a year or two (depending on how much you shoot it), the nipple flame channel eroded.

This of course is known in the industry and the reason why Lehigh vent liners got popular. Now, they've fallen out of favor and now a shooter has to replace the entire breech plug as its 1 piece. Anyone note the offerings of CVA breech plugs for the Accura's? They always advertise it in the mL sections... just owners dont know to check for wear. Several machinists offer services to machine out breechplugs to fit Lehigh Vent Liners which are only $5 or so each to replace.

My Remington 700ML is modified to take Vent Liners. I use this to check for wear:

https://www.badgerridgeind.com/store/p48/036ZZpin.html

The hotter the primer, the faster the rate of wear, and the sooner you need to fix it.


Vent liners:

https://www.badgerridgeind.com/store...VentLiner.html

CVA modified Breech plug:

https://www.badgerridgeind.com/store...onversion.html


-DallanC
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Is there a local (SLC) machinist that does that service?
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Old 02-24-2021, 07:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Use a shotgun primer for magnum loads like you are using. The Mag primers are for heavy loads (obviously) and the hotter primers will better ingnite the muzzleloader propellant. I use two 50gr White Hot pellets in my CVA Accura with 295gr Powerbelt bullets and I haven't noticed a difference in accuracy among three different brands of primers (CCI 209M, Fed209A, RemSTS. They are are deadly combos.
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