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Old 04-18-2017, 12:12 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Yep, you're right. Democrats, libertarians, and independents (or anyone else) have NEVER slipped a line item into a bill that did not get debated. Do you actually read the crap you post before you hit "submit reply?"

FYI- the appropriation bills, there are many each year, are all basically line items that get very little, if any debate. Most of them are worked out in committees well before the full house and/or senate vote on them.
I really think we are all in agreement about the core issue here. BGF shouldn't have ever received money, and it's a joke they still continue to receive money that would be much better served doing any number of different things.

In my opinion, it really detracts from that issue when a certain individual can't get past the team sport politics of it all and keeps lobbing partisan grenades instead of focusing on how to work with those who can do something about it now.

I refuse to believe that all republican lawmakers in Utah are our enemies when it comes to hunting/fishing/public lands and there's nothing we can do about changing their minds. Some of them need a wake-up call, certainly. (FWIW I didn't vote for Herbert, Bishop, Lee, et. al. since I know paddler is going to ask.)

I similarly refuse to believe that all democratic lawmakers are our bffs and want nothing more than for us to be able to hunt and fish everywhere in the state where it's currently allowed.

The republicans are on the wrong side of the public land issue and the BGF appropriations. I've posted many times how I'm disappointed/angered by their actions on a number of different topics. However, their influence in Utah is unlikely to diminish much if we are going to speak honestly. So, how do we best focus on working with what we have to stop the insanity? How do we do something constructive that could help the legislators see that they are making a mistake.

Pressure from the trib is good, but the reality is that most who are reading the tribune in Utah are already in agreement that something needs to change. Pressure from the left is probably falling on deaf ears for a variety of reasons.

It sounds like some Republicans are already speaking of concerns about the money going to BGF. How do we help them convince their colleagues? How do we put an end to Mike Noel's shenanigans?

We all have biases, and that's ok. How can we set those aside to discuss an issue objectively and actually come to a conclusion that is both feasible and beneficial for all?
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:33 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Just giving credit where due. That's the first step in holding people accountable. V's post is, as usual, a smokescreen and total crap. In all my years in Utah and on UWN, I've never seen local Democrats push through or support anything that is against our best interests as outdoorsmen, put corporate extractive interests before conservation, clean air or clean water. Every single time, whether it's public lands, or stream access, the environment, or BGF and SFW, or whatever, the Republicans are ramming things through along party lines. When they stop pulling crap, I'll stop holding them accountable. Bury your heads in the sand if you like, but that does absolutely nothing to change behavior.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:09 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Just giving credit where due. That's the first step in holding people accountable. V's post is, as usual, a smokescreen and total crap. In all my years in Utah and on UWN, I've never seen local Democrats push through or support anything that is against our best interests as outdoorsmen, put corporate extractive interests before conservation, clean air or clean water. Every single time, whether it's public lands, or stream access, the environment, or BGF and SFW, or whatever, the Republicans are ramming things through along party lines. When they stop pulling crap, I'll stop holding them accountable. Bury your heads in the sand if you like, but that does absolutely nothing to change behavior.
I just want to point out that there were at least 4 Democrats in the House that voted in favor of HB141 as memory serves. Your paintbrush may be a bit too large.
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:03 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I just want to point out that there were at least 4 Democrats in the House that voted in favor of HB141 as memory serves. Your paintbrush may be a bit too large.
I hope you're kidding. The vote in the House was 50-25, the vote in the Senate was 19-10. So you're saying 4 of the 50 "Yeas" were Democrats, while 46 were Republican. The vast majority of "Neas" were Democrats. That's commonly called a party line vote. If you like, you can post up the exact results by party affiliation, which would put a finer point on it.

I really don't see your point, except that maybe you want to absolve Republicans of responsibility for denying Utah's fishermen access to our streams. But that argument doesn't hold water. It was proposed by McIff, passed along party lines, and signed by our Republican governor. This would never have happened with a Democratic legislature and governor. That is a very important point, as none of the issues we are discussing would have happened with Democrats in power.

Kwalk, I think, illustrates very well misplaced wishful thinking. He said above that some Republicans are beginning to think that maybe we shouldn't be giving our tax dollars to BGF. History provides objective evidence to the contrary. It began in 2013 with a gift of $300000(?). The Dems tried to block it the first year and every year since. Republicans have now pulled this abuse of power five years straight, and the gift has increased to $2,000,000. I just can't understand why people don't wake up, stand up, and put an end to these abuses. It's crystal clear the Democrats align closely with our values, and I won't wait around for Republicans to throw us a crumb or two.
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:20 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I hope you're kidding. The vote in the House was 50-25, the vote in the Senate was 19-10. So you're saying 4 of the 50 "Yeas" were Democrats, while 46 were Republican. The vast majority of "Neas" were Democrats. That's commonly called a party line vote. If you like, you can post up the exact results by party affiliation, which would put a finer point on it.

I really don't see your point, except that maybe you want to absolve Republicans of responsibility for denying Utah's fishermen access to our streams. But that argument doesn't hold water. It was proposed by McIff, passed along party lines, and signed by our Republican governor. This would never have happened with a Democratic legislature and governor. That is a very important point, as none of the issues we are discussing would have happened with Democrats in power.

Kwalk, I think, illustrates very well misplaced wishful thinking. He said above that some Republicans are beginning to think that maybe we shouldn't be giving our tax dollars to BGF. History provides objective evidence to the contrary. It began in 2013 with a gift of $300000(?). The Dems tried to block it the first year and every year since. Republicans have now pulled this abuse of power five years straight, and the gift has increased to $2,000,000. I just can't understand why people don't wake up, stand up, and put an end to these abuses. It's crystal clear the Democrats align closely with our values, and I won't wait around for Republicans to throw us a crumb or two.
I think having a discussion about a nuanced issue actually requires having a nuanced point of view rather than being strictly partisan.

None of us are disagreeing that the Republicans are on the wrong side of this one. They are a direct threat to our pastimes on the public lands issue, and they are wasting valuable resources by squandering them to BGF with little to no accountability.

Instead of condescendingly accusing people of burying their heads in the sand, try to put partisan politics aside and figure out a way to get through to those who actually do have control. My head is far from in the sand, and I am well informed on the issues that affect me as a hunter/fisherman.

Yeah, I know, vote. But there's not an election this month. I also already said I didn't vote for any of the local yahoos pushing the agenda that harms us.

Also, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that there is going to be a Democratic majority in Utah in the senate and house in the near future. I would like to see more balance and accountability in Utah politics, but let's not kid ourselves that if the pendulum were to swing the opposite way that it would be all roses for us as sportsmen. It's not exactly "crystal clear", as you say.

You're making people who actually may agree with you on this issue out to be ignorant simply because they don't ascribe to the same partisan rhetoric you do.

But hey, keep abandoning nuance and yelling at a wall and we'll continue to see asinine appropriations and ideas. I'm going to go to the BHA meeting in Logan tomorrow and see how I can help fight against the state's push for public land transfer.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:09 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Paddler, your recent posts remind me of a line from Catcher in the Rye:

“It's partly true, too, but it isn't all true. People always think something's all true.”

There were some serious shenanigans that happened on the final vote of HB 141 in the House (BTW 43-28 ) where some of the Dem's and Rep's alike flipped their stance the final day. There are very sympathetic R's at the capitol to sportsman's issues. It is not fair to paint either party in absolutes. My only point is to illustrate that.

I think we probably agree on more than we disagree.
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Last edited by Daisy; 04-19-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:14 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I think having a discussion about a nuanced issue actually requires having a nuanced point of view rather than being strictly partisan.

None of us are disagreeing that the Republicans are on the wrong side of this one. They are a direct threat to our pastimes on the public lands issue, and they are wasting valuable resources by squandering them to BGF with little to no accountability.

Instead of condescendingly accusing people of burying their heads in the sand, try to put partisan politics aside and figure out a way to get through to those who actually do have control. My head is far from in the sand, and I am well informed on the issues that affect me as a hunter/fisherman.

Yeah, I know, vote. But there's not an election this month. I also already said I didn't vote for any of the local yahoos pushing the agenda that harms us.

Also, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that there is going to be a Democratic majority in Utah in the senate and house in the near future. I would like to see more balance and accountability in Utah politics, but let's not kid ourselves that if the pendulum were to swing the opposite way that it would be all roses for us as sportsmen. It's not exactly "crystal clear", as you say.

You're making people who actually may agree with you on this issue out to be ignorant simply because they don't ascribe to the same partisan rhetoric you do.

But hey, keep abandoning nuance and yelling at a wall and we'll continue to see asinine appropriations and ideas. I'm going to go to the BHA meeting in Logan tomorrow and see how I can help fight against the state's push for public land transfer.
There's another on this site who thinks like you do. Democrat in all but name but simply cannot switch party affiliation for whatever reason. He told me many years ago he wanted to work within the party for change. What I'm saying is there is no reason at all to think it will help. It hasn't so far, to think it will in the future is just denial. I've seen this movie before and know how it ends. Nothing personal, K, I just don't think your approach will work.

I was talking to Patrice Arent the other day, her position is that you change people's minds or you change people. You won't change their minds unless they feel threatened that they will be changed out for someone who supports us. Mark my words, you will not change anything on the hill until you change a few people. Only then will the rest start paying attention.

It's starting to happen on a national level and can happen here. Vote your beliefs, speak your beliefs, change minds or change people. Chaffetz said today that he will not run again. I have emailed him multiple times, called his office, etc, as have many others. His Democratic opponent outraised him by a ton. Changed can happen. Don't tell me your values on these issues. Tell me how you vote and spend your money, I'll tell you your values.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:55 AM   #58 (permalink)
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There's another on this site who thinks like you do. Democrat in all but name but simply cannot switch party affiliation for whatever reason. He told me many years ago he wanted to work within the party for change. What I'm saying is there is no reason at all to think it will help. It hasn't so far, to think it will in the future is just denial. I've seen this movie before and know how it ends. Nothing personal, K, I just don't think your approach will work.

I was talking to Patrice Arent the other day, her position is that you change people's minds or you change people. You won't change their minds unless they feel threatened that they will be changed out for someone who supports us. Mark my words, you will not change anything on the hill until you change a few people. Only then will the rest start paying attention.

It's starting to happen on a national level and can happen here. Vote your beliefs, speak your beliefs, change minds or change people. Chaffetz said today that he will not run again. I have emailed him multiple times, called his office, etc, as have many others. His Democratic opponent outraised him by a ton. Changed can happen. Don't tell me your values on these issues. Tell me how you vote and spend your money, I'll tell you your values.
Here's where you've assumed too much. I'm not a democrat in all but name. Nor am I a republican. I choose to approach an issue individually without making a pre-judgement based on who/what party supports it.

I have no issue with those who belong to a party or ascribe to one's platform, but I don't find that either party is able to adequately represent my nuanced point of view in an increasingly black/white world, especially regarding my interests as a sportsman. I'm also not in denial.

I'm willing to call out B.S. on either side if it is something that affects me as a sportsman. I'm equally willing to try and find those who are sympathetic to our plight as sportsmen regardless of the letter attached to their name.

Daisy mentioned that there are members of both parties sympathetic to our cause up on the hill. I vote against those who are against me as a sportsman.

There are groups who work hand in hand with senators on both sides of the aisle at a national level to try and effect change about the public lands issue. That seems like the most realistic way forward to me in regards to PLT and the BGF appropriations. You obviously disagree, but that doesn't necessarily mean either one of us is wrong.

Also, I don't need anyone to tell me my values. I know my values and they correspond exactly with how I vote and spend my money. I'm not being intellectually dishonest here.

I believe that the more you push the partisanship of this issue, you will alienate more people than you will garner their support. I've mentioned this a few times, but we agree on the core issue here. However, the way you've approached this discussion makes me less willing to further discuss this with you as I think it's more about party than the actual issue for you.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:25 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I wasn't talking about you, K.

I think the time for nuance is long over. Take BGF, for instance. Nuance has resulted in our legislature giving them money with absolutely no oversight or accountability five years running, while the amount has increased 700%. What's your end point? When is enough too much? I think we need to send a message. Get organised, form a group that speaks for all of Utah's outdoorsmen, and pay each and every legislator a visit. To paraphrase, "I know who you are, I know you voted against our interests. We have a very particular set of skills, skills that will be a nightmare for people like you. If you listen to us now, we will not look for you, we will not single you out. If you do not, we will agitate against you, we will campaign against you, we will vote against you, and we will defeat you."

I see nothing but upside for demanding transparency, accountability, and ensuring folks on the hill work for us.

Last edited by paddler; 04-19-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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