Your idea of the "perfect fix" - Utah Wildlife Network

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Old 02-21-2017, 12:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Your idea of the "perfect fix"

Everybody has ideas of what would make our LE drawing system better. Here's my idea. I'd love to hear your comments for and against as well as your own remedies.


Example only - Numbers are for convenience

LE any weapon mule deer hunt (all units excluding premium)

100 tags overall based on the same information tag numbers are currently determined under

75 management tags (3 points or less on one side) - These tags are available to anyone no matter how many points you have.

25 LE Mature buck tags (any antlered deer) - Applicants must have a minimum of 5 Mature buck tag bonus points to be eligible for this permit. In order to obtain a Mature buck bonus point the applicant must purchase them at the same cost as any other bonus point, at the rate of 1 per year. Yes, this means no chance of drawing a LE deer tag until the 6th year. That's the sacrifice.

I think this would solve a few issues.

#1 - Our LE units could really use cleaning out some of the management bucks. Hunters aren't willing to shoot these types of bucks after waiting so long for a tag, but a buck with better potential to become a great buck later on is quickly shot even when small. The management bucks are left to grow old while the others are not.

#2 - I believe a large majority of LE tag holders shoot deer that are 4 years old at best, many of them 2 or 3 years old. Most of them feel these bucks are a great trophy and there is nothing wrong with that. There are a few hunters however that would love a realistic chance at something larger than a 24" buck. The problem rises when the 75% who are happy with a smaller buck, and the 25% who want a larger buck are forced into the same drawing pool.

#3 - Many believe that Utah doesn't have any "middle ground" LE deer units. We have the premium units with no realistic chance of drawing unless you have max points, or we have all the rest. The chances of finding a 180" class buck on all the rest is pretty slim, no matter how long you are willing to wait. Yes, there are some every year, but not very many. I believe this change would allow units like the Book cliffs and Vernon to fill the request to let more people hunt bucks they would love to shoot anyway, as well as give others a chance to harvest an older age class of deer as well.
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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After dealing with surrounding states,
I like Utah's draw better than most others.

I like the 50/50 split, It's the only real chance young kid's have at most LE & OIAL tags.

Half the buck's shot now in the Book's and on Vernon are management bucks.
And it's more like 18" to 22".....
The Bookcliffs deer quality has been dropping for a decade,
I'm not sure a management hunt there would do much.

I don't mind Nevada's squared draw system,
But it sucks having to buy the NR hunting license to apply.

Same with Arizona,
Not very NR friendly , plus you have to buy the license there too.

Wyomings 75/25 split sucks,
Unless you have max points, (11).
I'll get one good elk and deer permit there soon, but then that's over..
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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My idea of the perfect fix is to just have double or triple the amount of each species so we can just triple the amount of tags given. Easy peezy, right?

With the realization that demand will forever exceed supply with hunting from here on out, I actually like Utah's bonus point system currently. But give it not much longer before the point system will become so huge that it will be obsolete.

Take the Pauns any weapon hunt, for example. These are very rough estimates off the top of my head, so take it with a grain of salt. In the 2016 application there were 495 people with 10 points or more. It's going to take approximately 9 years to clear all those people out of the deer pool.

But in those same 9 years there will be between 1600-1700 hunters that enter that same area with 10+ points. That is over 3 times as many people in the same point areas as there are today. Which, if all things remain static, will take 30+ years to clear those people out. You can see how this just continues to compound itself as time goes on. This is just one unit, for one species. I suspect the OIL outlook on this is much worse.

I don't know exactly where the cut off is, but there is a number in each pool where if you currently have below that level, you simply will not see that tag in your lifetime. And once we get to that point with all species, what is the purpose of a bonus point system?
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I like the idea of drawing a tag and shooting whatever makes me happy without some jackwad telling me what I should be shooting.
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Old 02-21-2017, 03:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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We don't need nor want a fix. Utah has the best draw system compared to surrounding states. What we do need is more animals, more moose, mt goats, deer, elk etc.

As Packout has mentioned in the past, eventually there might be a cap on the total number of bonus points one can maintain, for sake of argument lets say its 25. Once people hit 25 pts the pyramid begins to flatten out putting people on more of an even footing (and pretty much blowing up the draw odds for the top tier). I'll bet when that goes into effect, people put in for anything that gives them a tag with <25 pts.


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Old 02-21-2017, 03:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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PS: Anyone can just buy a tag for any unit in the state... don't forget, rich guys can hunt every year.

So like I tell my boy, don't sweat the draw odds... keep getting those straight A's in school, get a good college degree then go get a great job making a couple hundred thousand a year... THEN you can be one of those guys who just goes and buys tags every year. Completely bypass all the suckers standing in the points line.


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Old 02-21-2017, 03:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Honest, I used to think Utah's system was a pretty great one compared to others. However, my opinion has been changing more and more as I think of my kids starting to apply in another ten years or so. With the skew between demand and supply as steep as it is, I think a pure draw 1 entry per name per species type setup is the only "fair" way to go. Sure, maybe allow 3 entries per species so you can try separate units or throw all your eggs in one basket... But then again having to only choose 1 would help limit your competition. In this scenario you'd let residents and nonresidents apply for everything and it wouldn't matter much. No need to track point creep, no fear of missing a year, less incentive to put in mom, Grandma and everybody else who might mentor a hunt to someone who cares as note their isn't a"gauranteed" tag ever. Increase the waiting periods on LE elk, deer, and pronghorn to 10 years.
Or heck, make everybody choose one Oial and one LE species only... But again, with a straight draw.
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Old 02-21-2017, 03:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Make that OIL tag a OIL tag, once you draw one you are out of all the rest of the pools for OIL. Then with LE hunts once you draw a LE for a animal then you are done with LE hunts for that animal period. Only allow one deer application a year, either a general hunt or a LE hunt. No more being able to apply for a LE hunt and a general hunt in the same year.

These would get people moving through the system faster than a lot of other ideas.

In all reality there is no way to fix the system. We only have a finite amount of animals and with more hunters entering the pool each year there will never be enough to go around.
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Old 02-21-2017, 03:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Well Johny,
If Utah ever go's back to a strait random draw,
I want all my bonus point money refunded.

Heck, I've got $110.00 just in mountain lions!
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Old 02-21-2017, 04:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The only thing I would change with the draw is that I would draw the OIL first and then the LE. As it now stands, if you draw both a LE and an OIL tag in the same year, you get the LE tag and are ineligible for the OIL. I would have it the other way around. (you get the OIL tag and not the LE)


As for the rest, I think Utah has as good a plan as can be hoped for. Almost all of the plans I hear to "improve" the LE/OIL draws are basically rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
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