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Old 11-20-2015, 06:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The issue for him is I have the college degrees in the subject matter and over 15 years of actual paid field experience and all he has is a PhD in Google. I'm asking for relevant data that would prove or disprove his theories. He knows that data will disprove his theory so he resorts to personal attacks to derail the discussion. This is the precise reason why biologists walked out of the room on his last "presentation". He has even gone so far as to say on this very forum that if he didn't like the factually proven data that the data was therefore wrong
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:16 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The issue for him is I have the college degrees in the subject matter and over 15 years of actual paid field experience and all he has is a PhD in Google. I'm asking for relevant data that would prove or disprove his theories. He knows that data will disprove his theory so he resorts to personal attacks to derail the discussion. This is the precise reason why biologists walked out of the room on his last "presentation". He has even gone so far as to say on this very forum that if he didn't like the factually proven data that the data was therefore wrong
Can I just ask you what Lonetree has to gain from this personally? If it's more wildlife I'm all for that. I have read a lot of what he has posted and the studies he has pointed to. There are a million factors affecting our wildlife in one way or another. Some of them have bigger affects and more large scale affects than others. I think denying deadly chemicals could be disrupting proper development, survival, and reproduction is a blind ride. We've been flying this blind ride and if not for a few extremely favorable weather years in Utah, we would be experiencing the same downturns as mule deer are seeing in other states. Is their a variety of factors and problems? Yes. Have we really gotten very far with wildlife in the last couple decades? For the moment we can say yes because of a short and small rebound, but how long will this minor hill in the graph last? Mule deer populations have seen small spikes in perfect situations, but continue to have shorter lived rebounds and end up back where we started. If we see a major crash over the next few years I hope you can explain the question of why. I read an article in RMEF about mule deer and it explained how wildlife managers can't seem to figure the mule deer out. Like a roller coaster you see peaks and sharp drop offs. Then smaller peaks until the ride finally levels out and ends. We're on that roller coaster and haven't figured out what comes next, I hope it isn't the end of the track.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:35 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Copper deficiencies in diabetes, and other metabolic disorders:
The interrelationship of copper and insulin: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6344092

Copper deficient elk: http://jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7...-3558-24.4.656

Copper deficient diabetic moose: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10813452

Pesticides connected to diabetes: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/257045.php

Pesticides and diabetes, note these people were not eating them like the deer do: http://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-...-risk-diabetes

Copper and diabetes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22828546

Copper deficient antelope: http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/w_c/resear...study_plan.pdf

Copper deficient elk: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17347394

Copper deficient deer and DNA abnormalities: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...21997596800508

Copper deficiency in deer with access to adequate copper/slat licks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18447913

Se and copper deficient antelope: http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70021454

Se deficient bighorn sheep: http://link.springer.com/article/10....344-007-0128-9

Se deficient deer: http://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/23.pdf

Se and Cu deficient elk: http://jongosch.com/local-farriers-r...in-elk-horses/

Se and Cu deficient deer: http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...Site_mule_deer

Se and Cu deficient moose: http://sfw.net/2014/03/07/utah-dwrus...-study-report/
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostLouisianian View Post
The issue for him is I have the college degrees in the subject matter and over 15 years of actual paid field experience and all he has is a PhD in Google. I'm asking for relevant data that would prove or disprove his theories. He knows that data will disprove his theory so he resorts to personal attacks to derail the discussion. This is the precise reason why biologists walked out of the room on his last "presentation". He has even gone so far as to say on this very forum that if he didn't like the factually proven data that the data was therefore wrong
The guy that supposedly has the college degrees and field experience, can not grasp the basics of normal reference concentrations for mineral concentrations in animals, but he can disprove what I'm saying Like I said it does not get anymore basic than this.

The same guy that can't provide a single piece of anything to support anything he claims.

Here is the "theory": Pesticides induce metabolic disorders and mineral deficiencies, with either leading to the other. The results of this are declined populations, malformations, reduced reproduction, suppressed populations, etc, etc. Dismantle it! Explain how this can't possibly be the case. I have provided plenty of explanation as to how this plays out scientifically, and provided reams of reference material. Explain to everyone how this is scientifically not possible.

Explain how pesticides can't cause thyroid disorders and diabetes?

Explain to us how thyroid disorders and diabetes don't cause, are not caused, and are not associated with mineral deficiencies, specifically Selenium, copper, magnesium and cobalt.

Then explain how thyroid disease does not affect the sexual dymorphism, and the balancing of lateral mid line development of fetuses?

Then explain away the exponential increase in pesticide use over the past 40 years, and the corresponding mineral deficiencies seen in wildlife, over the same time period?

At a minimum, explain all the Cu and Se deficiencies seen in Western Wildlife over the last 30 years......?

YOU can't do it.........
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:28 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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The real question might be, how cold is too cold to take pictures of deer balls?
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:05 AM   #27 (permalink)
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The real question might be, how cold is too cold to take pictures of deer balls?
And to catch more of the "It would be funny, but....." comedy tour, check the schedule here: http://wildlife.utah.gov/board-rac.html
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Old 11-22-2015, 01:01 PM   #28 (permalink)
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So we have established that pesticides can cause thyroid disease, and diabetes.

We have also established that thyroid conditions and diabetes have very interrelated roles with copper and selenium. With thyroid conditions driving and being driven by selenium deficiencies. While diabetes is associated with copper deficiencies. We have overlap among all of this, as both conditions are autoimmune, and metabolism rooted conditions.

We have also seen that during and after big game population declines, we see copper and selenium deficiencies in these animals, along with other related mineral deficiencies such as cobalt(B12) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18655403 and magnesium.

Enter CWD: So CWD had been known in Colorado since the late 1960's, when deer populations first entered free fall. But the spread and increase of cases was slow until the late 1980's/early 1990's, when it became a much bigger problem than it had been in the past. Just like back then, we are now seeing increases in cases of CWD, and we are seeing CWD in places we have not seen it before.

Copper, Prions, and CWD: So CWD is a "transmissible spongiform encephalopathy". It is wasting condition affecting cervids. CWD has a shared etiology with other conditions such as diabtes, ALS, and other metabolic/autoimmune/degenerative conditions http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21571086 where the aggregation of misfolded proteins are at the root of the condition/disease.

The biggest difference with CWD is that its misfolded proteins, known as Prions are infectious, and the condition can be spread from one individual to another.

But the similarities at a certain level are striking. Especially between Diabetes and CWD as they share many of the same features, AND TSE's like CWD can be misdiagnosed as metabolic disorders like diabetes. From this: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/9/09-0253_article

"However, if CWD in humans appears like a wasting syndrome similar to that observed in the squirrel monkeys in our study, affected persons might receive a diagnosis of a metabolic disorder and never be tested for TSE."

The copper connection: http://www.copper.org/publications/n...2/mad-cow.html So infectious prions share misfolding with diabetes, and they also have a shared role of copper deficiency. Prions are copper binding proteins that can bind to several copper molecules. Infectious misfolded prions are copper deficient, and have had those copper receptors replaced with manganese. Copper deficient misfolded prions are not infectious, IF their copper receptors have not been filled by manganese. Therefor you need two thing to occur to predispose for initiation, and therefor increased transmission. One is copper deficiency like is associated with many metabolic disorders, and second is an increase manganese to fill the voids left because of copper deficiencies.

CWD, Manganese, and magnesium: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801312/

So if you apply a herbicide like a sulfonylurea or Amidazolinone which can biochemically induce insulin resistance in mammals and therefor lead to diabetes, and therefor copper deficiency. You have the makings for part of this. In many areas that have experienced big game declines in association with copper deficiencies, herbicides in the Sulfonylurea and Amidazolinone classes have been documented to have been used.

So if you are half way there, and all you need is more manganese, how does that happen? Well one way would be if the area is naturally high in manganese like the area around Fort Collins CO where CWD was first discovered in North America. The other way would be by chemical means. If you use a herbicide like Tebuthiuron to take off sagebrush, then you would see the following plants that are grown in this area have an increased manganese content for as long as a decade after. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3986813?...n_tab_contents Not only will the manganese content be higher, animals will preferentially eat these plants.

So what do you think would happen if you used large amounts of Imazapic(An Amidazolinone) and large quantities of Tebuthiuron in the same area? Well, I'd bet on the potential for CWD.

Now guys like Lost will tell you that I can't prove this, and I just read some stuff on the internet. So lets step back and look at what animals that have frequented a real life place where tens of thousands of acres were treated with Imazapic and Tebuthiuron. While you can't look at them and make a CWD diagnosis, they do have malformed antlers like are seen in copper deficient animals: http://jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7...-3558-24.4.656

And they now have access to plants with higher concentrations of manganese, that are shown to be preferred by animals.





Lost can probably explain it better as he has "degrees and 15 years of field experience". Though he should probably start with an explanation of why he does not understand "normal reference concentrations" as they pertain to mineral concentrations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_range This is how those look with HIGH levels of selenium http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti.../t1-cvj_01_70/ If an animal was deficient or high in selenium in 1960, or 2015, it would chart against the same "reference values" You would think that a guy with degrees in the field would understand this. Or maybe that's the problem, maybe people with degrees, like Lost, are just that,.....well,....Lost, yet leading the charge on the past 20 years of failed attempts at "wildlife management".
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Old 11-22-2015, 01:36 PM   #29 (permalink)
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How cold is too cold for deer?

Duration humidity wind snow depth all important factors. Like mentioned also deer up north manage cold temps. Canada?

Surprise! I think it matters what the predators are doing. I'm certain that a deer being chased by a cougar or coyote is burning more calories then a deer that has never seen a cougar and rarely seen a coyote. Of coarse there is middle ground. But the mere presence of predators leads to a more alert more stressed deer or elk.

Something completely denied in the deer body fat winter survival assessments.

But we easily identify shed hunters as problems because they make deer run when they look for horn.

As for pesticides I'm not at all in disagreement that pesticides are negative to life in general. All forms. But I question to what degree they are the cause of all ills wildlife. Simply based on the fact it's not constant. Some critters are thriving these days some aren't. Some areas better than others. Some areas totally void of pesticides aren't booming with game while some areas that pesticides are doing well. And why don't pesticides decimate predators.
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Old 11-22-2015, 02:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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How cold is too cold for deer?

Duration humidity wind snow depth all important factors. Like mentioned also deer up north manage cold temps. Canada?

Surprise! I think it matters what the predators are doing. I'm certain that a deer being chased by a cougar or coyote is burning more calories then a deer that has never seen a cougar and rarely seen a coyote. Of coarse there is middle ground. But the mere presence of predators leads to a more alert more stressed deer or elk.

Something completely denied in the deer body fat winter survival assessments.

But we easily identify shed hunters as problems because they make deer run when they look for horn.

As for pesticides I'm not at all in disagreement that pesticides are negative to life in general. All forms. But I question to what degree they are the cause of all ills wildlife. Simply based on the fact it's not constant. Some critters are thriving these days some aren't. Some areas better than others. Some areas totally void of pesticides aren't booming with game while some areas that pesticides are doing well. And why don't pesticides decimate predators.
And you have studied areas with and without pesticides? Are you seeing any trends in areas where certain kinds of pesticides are being used? Maybe you could expound upon your observations.

As for cold and winter, yes winter conditions will affect predation. Movement and ease of movement, ie. snow depth will play a huge role in this. But ultimately it is the health of these animals heading into winter that plays the biggest role in how they will emerge from winter after facing cold, snow, predators, etc.

And it has been shown over and over again in declining big game populations that are suffering from poor health, and are afflicted with conditions, and mineral deficiencies(very well documented stuff) that they will not fair well when faced with excessive cold, snow and predation.

Everyone always says we can't do anything about the weather, but you can shoot predators, which has been done and has been studied. It has been shown that reducing predators does not increase long term survival, or increase population numbers though. So......what is the best bet for getting more deer through the winter, and past the predators?.......Make sure they are healthy.

So looking at declines and suppression of populations we see several health factors play in, and they include mineral deficiencies and other health conditions over and over again.

Predator reduction has been studied to death, and the results keep showing essentially the same thing, there is no gain in big game populations.

Examples: Declining Whiskey mountain big horn sheep are shown to be selenium deficient. As their health declines, predation increases. So they implement predator control, but the population continues to decline. Why? becasue it was a health issue, not a predator problem.

Declining deer and antelope with copper deficiencies at Hart Mountain were experiencing increased predation(and predator populations) as their populations collapsed, so it was proposed to implement a large scale predator control program. This proved to be controversial so it was cancelled. Guess what happened with the deer and antelope? The population stabilized and experienced an modest increase, in the face of increased predation. Why, becasue it was a health problem not predator problem.

In the late 1930s Yellowstone mule deer were in extreme decline, they faced competition from elk, and range conditions were poor. Because of budgetary limitations(depression) predator control was halted, and coyote numbers increased. So what do you think happened to the deer? That's right they doubled their population in 4 years. Why?, because what ever was driving their declines and suppression, was not predator related. I don't have the full picture on this yet, but the use of chemicals for "conservation" purposes in Yellowstone was massive in the 1920s.






The above pictures are of lead arsenate being sprayed on spruce in and near Yellowstone in the late 1920s, early 1930s.

Iron Bear how do we address these documented realities?
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